as an alternative...Mahmoud advocates CLIM to sell for $200. how about if CLIM goes for 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of the lisp it runs in? (the version I have, for Allegro/Sparcs is about that) this way it doesn't triple the cost of the products (MCL being $500, which ain't cheap either, compared to C/C++ compilers with Windows3 libraries)... -- clint 0,,