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MacIvories and Mac System 7.0?

There seem to be some misconceptions out there regarding what
I said, and about System 7, and about what people can and cannot
do.  Let me clear the air a bit.

First, let me clarify what I said.  I'm not upset that Symbolics
isn't holding their release; I'm only upset that they seem to feel
they can only address an important problem (which has a trivial
solution) by including it as part of a full release cycle many months
from now.

And again, while I need virtual memory, and Symbolics has had a lot
of time to do virtual memory, and I'm impatient, THAT IS NOT WHAT
I WAS CRITICIZING.  Not fixing m-U & friends until the fall is what
I was criticizing.  And implicitly, the attitude that Symbolics can
dictate that I hold off on System 7 until the fall is what I am

    Date: Thu, 30 May 91 11:52:02 EDT
    From: bart@nynexst.com (Bart Burns)
    Chill out.  Symbolics needs our support too, not just ragging.
    Let's keep perspective please.

Support is one thing, co-dependence is another.

I do care about Symbolics, which is why I have always
tried to prod them into having pro-active customer support,
and not alienating customers, etc.  If my ragging on them now
gets them to announce a reasonable plan, it beats letting
them wait N months until LOTS of customers start griping,
just as they're trying to get people to buy MacIvory III's.

Let's put things in perspective:  Companies which don't
address customer needs and which leave customers hanging,
tend to go out of business.  None of us want that for
Symbolics.  THAT'S perspective.

    Date: Thu, 30 May 91 15:50 EDT
    From: Peter Van Sickel <pvs@jazz.al.alcoa.com>
    Back off bashing on Symbolics regarding Mac System 7.0.
    Apple blew off 2 years putting it together.  For what?  Some minor
    cleanups, a few cute but annoying gimmicks and a slow virtual memory
    system?  You don't want System 7.0 on your machine right away anyhow.

Hey, back off bashing Apple!

In point of fact, I have had VERY few compatibility problems, except
with certain INIT and certain utilities.  (And upgrades are already
available for most of these!)

The VAST majority of applications just run.  Some others run, with minor
glitches you can work around.  I have more invested in Mac software than
the price of this MacIvory, and it all works, or has already been upgraded
to work.

Furthermore, it's a lot more than just some cleanups, gimmicks,
and slow VM.  The full power won't be available until applications
take advantage of it, but already the user-interface has been cleaned
up a lot.

There *IS* just one annoying gimmick.  I presume you refer to the
annoying clone of the mouse documentation line, called Balloon Help.
Unlike Symbolics' mouse documentation line, it is SO intrusive and
annoying that you can only stand to use it when you have a specific

So you turn it off.

    It's buggy and lots of stuff doesn't run on it.  Wait 'til 7.1 hits the
    streets, then try it.

I switched over to using it full-time months ago.  Going back to
System 6 is *NOT AN OPTION*.  Nor is it likely to be an option
for anyone else who develops software for the Mac, nor anyone
who needs facilities provided by System 7 (such as being able
to run an application larger than a peanut).

The Ivory board is resident in my Macintosh, not the other way
a guest in my Mac, and cannot dictate what software I run on
my Mac, nor what hardware I plug into it.

If my Mac and my MacIvory have an argument, it's Symbolics
which loses.

    Date: Fri, 31 May 91 10:36 EDT
    From: Brad Miller <miller@SOL.CS.ROCHESTER.EDU>
    I have to heartily agree with these sentiments. You're wait for VM is
    Apple's fault, not Symbolics. And how many revisions of system 7 were there
    in the period after March? 7? 8? I don't see how anyone can have a reaonable
    shot to certify software would be complient. 

These "revisions" were part of the QA process, of testing and
bug fixing.  Very few developers had to change their software
due to any changes between the March "SuperBeta" release and the
final release.

But that's really irrelevant, since my complaint wasn't "Why
don't they have a fix already", but rather with the decision
to not do ANYTHING until the next convenient full release.

    Look at Apple's OWN Software Arm: Claris --- their system 7 compatible
    software isn't due out until late summer!!! 

Upgrades to make use of new System 7 features are a whole
'nother matter.  I don't care if it takes until this fall
until I can publish sections of my LMFS files.  I just want
to be able to type m-U.
						(upgrades to MacWrite II, for
    instance). And Apple isn't selling MPW 3.2 (system 7 compatible development
    tools) through APDA until Summer either. 

Summer isn't far away.  Fall is.  And Apple has made 7.0-compatible
MPW facilities available to Apple developers for a long time now.

					     A lot of other companies are in the
    same boat: Semantec's System7 compliant Think C won't be out till late

The System 7 beta CD-Roms, and the Golden Master, for some time now,
have come with upgrades for Think C and Think Pascal for System 7.

	    many other vendors are behind, particularly if their product uses
    any sort of networking. Hell, you'll have a hard time getting 6.0.7
    compatible versions of a lot of ethernet stuff even now!!

Although Apple doesn't claim support in MacTCP 1.0.x, there are lots
of reports of people using it successfully.

And of all the vendors I have talked to about upgrades for system 7
compatibility, NOT ONE (except Symbolics) has quoted a date past

Again, major upgrades are another story.

    So if you want to complain - call Apple and ask why their development tools
    and stable versions weren't available sooner.  Then sit down, order a life
    from the bar, and wait like "the rest of us"[TM].

If my complaint were that I didn't have the Genera fixes today,
this might be appropriate.  But actually, despite there being
fair grounds for some complaints, Apple has done a far, far
better job of keeping developers primed with intermediate versions
of the software and upgrades for the development tools, than Symbolics
does with its software distribution.

Believe me, the complaints I have regarding Apple, I have taken up
with Apple (as have lots of other developers).  But too much of this
discussion has taken the form of blaming Apple either for things which
just aren't true, or shifting the blame from Symbolics to Apple for
things which I never blamed Symbolics for in the first place.

    And as someone who has actually booted the damn thing up, I'm going back to
    6.0.7 and not holding my breath. The publicity far outstrips the utility.

Feel free.  Eventually, you'll start finding software won't work
or will be missing features in older systems.  Or you'll run out
of memory.  Or you'll need to share files with another Mac, and
not want to fork out $$.  Upgrade then.  Just don't gripe at me
because I can't wait back there with you.